An open place for all things cre8tive!
"The QUEST": to find TRUTH
"The METHOD": fearless and open-minded EXPLORATION
"The MOTIVATION": to FIGHT AGAINST entropy
*en·tro·py: Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.

Monday, June 07, 2004

Where you stick your wick...

*A Brief Disclaimer:
As I am fully aware that there may be "Christians" who read this, I wish to make it VERY CLEAR that all such words which one would otherwise label as "swearing" or "curse" words that are found within this particular blog have been methodically and carefully chosen to be placed where they are, precisely for their designed purpose... to communicate a specific thought. Please read all such words LITERALLY (that is to say:with their ACTUAL MEANINGS attached) and NOT as emotional interjections. If you cannot HANDLE such literal use of the English language, then please do not read on. Truth is, if that is you, then you probably can't handle the "meat" within this Blog in the first place. For the rest of you...read on...FREE YOUR MIND. Gosh, that sounded a lot like the "Red Pill - Blue Pill" speech! Brother Morpheus would be proud.


"The Emporer's Not WEARING Any Clothes!"
In my intellectual journey, I find myself more and more often re-examining the broader methods, definitions, and practices that "Christians" are most reputably known for. In part, it is these very generalized beliefs that make up the bulk of why the word "Christian" has simply lost its meaning (see "Why I'm Not A Christian Anymore..."). Among those beliefs is the debate over homosexuality and its relationship to salvation.

It makes NO DIFFERENCE where you stand on this issue, EVERYONE KNOWS it's big news!


To begin with,
let's just be up front about some things.

First, there are always extremes in any debate, from one end of the spectrum to another. From GodHatesFags to GodLovesFags, opinions span the range of possibilities.

The EASY thing to do...
If you're ever looking for the EASY way to deal with any known issue, just observe the prevailing cultural approach. From the "world" the easy way to deal with homosexuality is to just accept it...no questions asked. From the "church" the easy way to deal with homosexuality is to just condem it...no questions asked. Sadly, our prevailing culture (Christians MOST DEFINITELY included) REALLY LOVES EASY.

Avoiding easy...
Unfortunately, I fear that God is not so simple. I'm just not sure that the "issue" is as cut and dry as that..to either of the extremes. Now I am not suggesting moral relativism (that is to say, no moral absolutes). However, I am suggesting that there may be times when such absolutes are not called into question and yet certain quandries remain.

To make a GOOD argument...
...Christians seem to be weak at doing this. The reason? They don't work both sides of the equation. After all, a GOOD argument requires such attention. For example, a popular "Christian" argument would be that homosexuality is wrong because God did not design our "bits" to fit together "that way." Simple biology really. Another way of saying the same would be to say that it is immoral to use our bodies in a way that is CONTRARY to how they were designed. However, Christians fail to take that reasoning to its opposite logical end. That would therefore mean that it is likewise immoral to NOT use our bodies in the way that they WERE designed. In other words, people who abstain from sex (based on that argument alone) are just as immoral as those who have sex...but in the wrong way.

I SUBMIT...
Our job is not to know...but to love.
I mean really, where do we get off issuing a decree one way or the other? Maybe nailing someone to a cross over their homosexuality helps you better ignore you incessant masturbation. Or perhaps condeming a "queer" is the best way to divert attention away from the fact that you don't really love your husband. Maybe it's the racism... or the verbal or physical abuse you subject your kids to... or the money you're skimming off the top... or the hatred you have for that guy who took advantage of you in that small business venture you had a go at... or whatever! You name it! Who's perfect? Really?

The WHOLE POINT is our imperfection.
Folks, it's why we NEED A SAVIOUR. I submit that homosexuality is WONDERFUL.

WOAAHH THERE JUNIOR!!!!

Now you've gone TOO FAR!

Let me explain...

I submit that homosexuality is perhaps one of the MAJOR ISSUES responsible for thrusting the modern church into a tailspin that it will not soon (if ever) pull out of...and that is wonderful!

It's wonderful because "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "God hates fags" cannot coexist any longer. And yet, for so long, we have nutured and DESIRED such cohabitation. Talk about forcing our OWN AGENDA. OK, so maybe you don't subscribe to "God Hates Fags." Perhaps you are a "God hates the sin but loves the sinner" bonehead. I call such people boneheads NOT BECAUSE I DISAGREE with the fact that God hates sin and loves sinners, but because such Truth has NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT WHO'S "IN" and WHO'S "OUT" OF THE KINGDOM.

OK, fine! So God Hates sin!
OK, fine! So God loves sinners.


What have we proven? IF ANYTHING we only prove that each of us has HOPE! After all, are we not ALL SINNERS? Could it be that God is using the most "taboo" of issues to actually purge His church? Ask Jesus. He seemed to be pretty good at turning expectations of the Pharisees on their heads.

"Calling a duck a duck..."
Christians get real persnickity and downright MEAN when you catch them wallering in their mud pits. You call a duck a duck and you're bound to get the boot. You expose the cold, hard hypocracy that suggests one man's right to Christ's sacrifice and refuses it to another, and Christians get all worked up. We act like you don't understand us or something...but really, the anger is more closely connected to HOW VERY WELL YOU DO UNDERSTAND US. We get angry because we cannot explain ourselves. We cannot explain ourselves because we cannot deal with the outright shame that comes when the person in the lifeboat faces the fact that they WILLFULLY KICKED OUT ANOTHER, back into the icy waters, just because they were afraid those very others would sink the lifeboat itself.

"In our salvation...we are murderers."
Selfish. Pathetic. Shameful. That is what we are. Completely lacking faith in the salvation that Christ has given us. Believing it has limitations. Fearing that the boat cannot hold certain loads. Proclaiming that we understand what salvation is cabpable of withstanding and what it is not.

Where does such self-protecting rage come from?

SHAME.

And where does such awful shame come from?

FROM KNOWING ONE SIMPLE TRUTH:


That if we were the only soul left in the icy water, and the lifeboat was one seat short of having room for us...that Christ Himself would trade us places...in an INSTANT and without hesitation trade His seat for our frigid, watery grave... becuase He loves us THAT MUCH.

We on the other hand are in it for ourSELVES.

FILTHY.

DIRTY.

GREEDY.

HELL-BENT ON STAYING IN THE DAMNED BOAT!
BASTARDS, every one, but not for circumstance...

...WE ARE FATHERLESS BY CHOICE!



Now the Truth:

Salvation is not found on land,
where crowded lifeboats wash ashore.
Salvation is found only at the bottom of the sea.









11 Comments:

Blogger Fireside International said...

Dave,

The problem is the Bible. I will address what a mean in a post that is yet to come! Stay tuned!

Thanks for the feedback y'all.

8:06 PM

 
Blogger adam said...

Christ eliminated the bar we need to get over to have relationship, and we keep putting the damned thing back up. AND WE DONT EVEN SEE IT!! Great post Luke.

3:17 PM

 
Blogger adam said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:17 PM

 
Blogger We Three Spences said...

I am not going to use scripture this time since it is obvious that scriptures do not hold much ground with you. Let's use an illustration of sorts. Let's just pretend that we are sitting in a small corner of a store and one of your friends walks in the store and right in front of your face stuffs a CD down his pants. Do we just pretend that nothing happened, say "I love you brother" and go on with our day.

Another illustration...another one of your friends comes to you and tells you their troubled story about how they went a little too far one night and ended up pregnant, but their parents would have just killed them, so of course they had an abortion. Do we just pretend nothing is going on and say "I love you sister" and go on with our day.

One more.....How about the guy that climbs in his daughters bed at night to show her exactly how much he "loves her". Is that where we say "I love you brother", and go on with our day.

Or is it time to wake up from our let everyone do what they want phase and realize that we are being programmed into believing that this stuff is normal. Shouldn't we worry about these peoples souls? Didn't Jesus come to cover our sins? If we stop looking at these things as sins that are sins, did Jesus die for nothing?

Don't label me either, I do not believe in hating someone because they have sin in their lives (whether it be adultery, gay relations, murderous heart, hating their neighbor, or hating God). EVERYONE has sin in their lives, again, if we didn't then Jesus came in vain. But we can't pretend that it isn't sin anymore just because it fits into the society's normals today. That just doesn't work for me, Satan has had his hand on the molding of society for too long now for me to say that it is ok. Yes we should love these people who sin, and in turn love their souls. Which means we have to worry about sometimes telling people that this behavior or that behavior might keep you out of heaven, and I want you there with me. (Which I think is quite contrary to what you said about pushing them out of the boat because we don't want to lose our place)

(just an after note....yes it is hard not to use the bible and the scriptures within it because they are the backing of faith......without the bible what would we have to guide us to God....only God telling us that He is real (because we certainly wouldn't know what the Holy Spirit is) and that would take the faith out of our relationship with Him.)

kristy

11:38 AM

 
Blogger Fireside International said...

Kristy, thanks for the feedback! I'm going to respond on an item-by-item basis okay? Alright... here goes.

Kritsy - "I am not going to use scripture this time since it is obvious that scriptures do not hold much ground with you."Me - Easy killer! You couldn't have possibly misunderstood me more! Seriously. I believe that SCRIPTURE IS PERFECT. It is PEOPLE that hold no ground with me. As a matter of fact...the way in which you just misunderstood me PERFECTLY DEMONSTRATES MY WHOLE POINT. People are simply incapable of handling the scriptures (and there is thousands of years of data to back that up) because people can't understand, or don't wanna understand, or whatever. In the same way that you completely missed the meaning of my simple words, people repeatedly misunderstand God's PERFECT and POWERFUL words.

SCRIPTURE IS NOT THE PROBLEM... PEOPLE ARE.

Thank you for helping me demonstrate this.

Kristy - "Let's just pretend that we are sitting in a small corner of a store and one of your friends walks in the store and right in front of your face stuffs a CD down his pants. Do we just pretend that nothing happened, say "I love you brother" and go on with our day. Me - That's certainly not the way I would handle it.

Kritsy - "Another illustration...another one of your friends comes to you and tells you their troubled story about how they went a little too far one night and ended up pregnant, but their parents would have just killed them, so of course they had an abortion. Do we just pretend nothing is going on and say "I love you sister" and go on with our day.Me - I dunno. This seems like a much more complex situation. Based on all of the unknowns (i.e. the dynamics of your relationship with the person, how well you understand what happed, etc) it could go many ways.

Kristy - "One more.....How about the guy that climbs in his daughters bed at night to show her exactly how much he "loves her". Is that where we say "I love you brother", and go on with our day.Me - From first hand experience, I wouldn't (and didn't) handle this one that way either. Truthfully, I am seeing a BIG problem with these examples. You ended every one with "...and go on with our day." The WHOLE POINT that I am trying to make is that we should NEVER go on with our day. We should GO ON WITH THEIR DAY. To go on with our day is SELFish. By Christ's model, our day has do DIE. There should be no more "Our Day" ever again. That's just something you're gonna have to be shown by the Lord. As selfish as we all are at our core... only Christ can break through with that Truth.

Kristy - "Or is it time to wake up from our let everyone do what they want phase and realize that we are being programmed into believing that this stuff is normal." Me - If by "normal" you mean acceptable... then I don't think that sin (of any kind) is ever "normal." If by "normal" you mean "not new"... then yeah, these sins (and every other sin) is normal. I am unclear whether you are using this word literally here... or redefining it to fit your example.

Kristy - "Shouldn't we worry about these peoples souls?"Me - ABSOLUTELY. More than our own. And there's my point.

Kristy - "Didn't Jesus come to cover our sins?Me - I would say "no." Again because I am unsure of how you are using the word "cover." If you are using it literally, then I think that Jesus DID NOT come to cover our sins but rather, to UNCOVER them. To expose us and then to immediately forgive us. If you are using the word "cover" like most Christians use it... then, yes, I guess He did come to cover our sins. You are giving wonderful examples that show just how ineffective the Christian mastery of the English language has become (which goes right back to why we are killing people with the Bible). How in the world is anyone supposed to be able to understand us? WE CAN'T EVEN UNDESRTAND US.

Kristy - "If we stop looking at these things as sins that are sins, did Jesus die for nothing?"Me - I wouldn't want to assume anything here, but it sounds like you think that I am saying that homosexuality is OK. Kristy, I never said that! Where did I say that adultery, homosexuality, incest, molestation, or any of those sorts of things were OK???? WHERE? I'll tell you where... NO WHERE! There IS sin. Sin IS wrong. That IS part of the reason that Jesus died. But, based on nearly half of what you wrote, it seems as though you feel I said we should just sit down and do nothing when we see sin or injustice being done. But I never said any such thing.

Kristy - "Don't label me either,"Me - GOOD FOR YOU!

Kristy - "I do not believe in hating someone because they have sin in their lives (whether it be adultery, gay relations, murderous heart, hating their neighbor, or hating God)."Me - GOOD!

Kristy - "EVERYONE has sin in their lives, again, if we didn't then Jesus came in vain. But we can't pretend that it isn't sin anymore just because it fits into the society's normals today. That just doesn't work for me, Satan has had his hand on the molding of society for too long now for me to say that it is ok."Me - Sounds like we're in the same boat here. That's why I NEVER said any sin was OK.

Kristy - "Yes we should love these people who sin, and in turn love their souls. Which means we have to worry about sometimes telling people that this behavior or that behavior might keep you out of heaven, and I want you there with me. (Which I think is quite contrary to what you said about pushing them out of the boat because we don't want to lose our place)Me - Hmmm. You just don't get it Kristy. I tried to be clear but you appear to be missing the entire point. Let me just try to restate the entire blog in the form of a few pointed questions for you:

- If you were a lifelong Christian and loved the Lord with all of your heart and had somehow by the grace of God gotten your "stuff" together to such a degree that Heaven was your reward, would you be willing to give up your eternity in Heaven in order that a homosexual could have it instead?

- More simply, would you trade one man's damnation for your salvation?

- Even simpler still: Who is more important, you or others?
There you go. Just answer the questions. Honestly. Privately. Don't throw in qualifiers. Don't pretend to know circumstances or whether or not a homosexual could even MAKE IT past the pearly gates. Avoidance of the question as it is written is usually your answer in disguise. It is a hypothetical question and, as such, is intended to flush out a single truth. So just answer the questions.

We spend so much time getting "life insurance" for ourSELVES. If we want to be like Christ, then that has GOT to end . If Christ were interested in His SELF, he never would have died. But He was more interested in OTHERS. So death was what He traded; His death for our life.

Would any of you trade; your death for the life of a rapist? No? Then folks, we have a problem. From the Old Testament to the new... SACRIFICE IS AT THE HEART OF SALVATION. And I don't mean giving up your burrito. I mean giving up your LIFE. That is why Salvation is found at the bottom of the sea. NOT because the homosexual was "sin free" or "deserving" of that place in the boat. But because you loved him enough to give up your seat even though YOU DESERVED IT MORE.

Kristy - "(just an after note....yes it is hard not to use the bible and the scriptures within it because they are the backing of faith......without the bible what would we have to guide us to God....only God telling us that He is real (because we certainly wouldn't know what the Holy Spirit is) and that would take the faith out of our relationship with Him.)Me - Kristy, this last statement completely falls on its face. I mean seriously, you must see this. Sure the Bible might be the backing of YOUR faith... but not everyone is like you. Some people see angels. Some people receive miraculous healing. Some hear a still, small voice. Let me take the rest of that last statement a line at a time:

Kristy - "Without the Bible what would we have to guide us to God?Me - How about the same thing that MILLIONS of people had BEFORE THE BIBLE EXISTED and perhaps the same thing that millions of others have NOW, even though they may NEVER SEE OR HEAR THE SCRIPTURES in their lifetime.

Kristy - "....only God telling us that He is real (because we certainly wouldn't know what the Holy Spirit is)"Me - Unless, of course, God revealed the Holy Spirit to us in a different way. I mean, if He can do it once... He can do it again. Right? If he can do it with a BOOK, then He could do it with a DONKEY. Right? And If He can tell us that He is real (as you suggest), it seems reasonable to think that He can find some way to tell us who the Holy Spirit is. Or do you impose limitations upon God? Must He only do it in the way you are used to? Of course not.

Kristy - "and that would take the faith out of our relationship with Him.)"Me - Even IF that were true (and I am not agreeing that it necessarily is)... so what? Faith is a MUCH bigger deal to us than it is to Him. He knows that we're "blind" down here.

Look, I think that I have exhausted my present ability to state my case here. Kristy, I believe that you are a beautiful person and I really do appreciate your response. If you misunderstand me, then there's nothing more that I can do. I feel that I have been very clear. Perhaps this thing I speak of is based on revelation that I have received. If that were the case, revelation comes from God and not me... so no amount of me hammering will empower me to communicate it to you. Just know that, we are probably on the same page in many ways and clearly not on the same page in some others. That doesn't necessarily make me right and you wrong (or visa versa). It's a journey. The important thing is that we both SEEK the Truth. My entire submission is that MOST CHRISTIANS SEEK SALVATION FOR THEMSELVES FIRST and then for others and I am not sure that is the way salvation is gained. It seems to me that, just by looking at Christ, Salvation has EVERYTHING to do with placing others first.

To Kristy and everyone else, I apologize if I sound harsh in any of this. Some of it is just the shortcoming of the written word. Blogging simply cannot capture my heart and my compassion. On top of that, I do tend to write words with sharp edges. It's my way. In part, it is counter cultural. We LIKE to hear yummy words or comfortable soliloquies. We want to be "sold." I HATE THAT ABOUT US (me included). So my words are pointed. No dilly dally. No sizzle. As a result, they definitely "read" angry from time to time. Please know that I have LOVE for all of you. But my patience and tolerance for protecting SELF is at an all time LOW. I just won't have it here.

With a sincere pursuit of the utmost love and compassion for everyone,
Luke Renner

4:04 PM

 
Blogger Fireside International said...

Thanks Sig!

5:48 PM

 
Blogger We Three Spences said...

i am truly confused about how you believe. at one point you said scripture is perfect, and another you said that someone had to (pick the parts that we think are ok) when they put the bible together. it sounds like you are suggesting here that humans decided what went in and what got left out, correct me if i am wrong, but isn't that a contradiction???? if people picked what they wanted in the bible according to what they thought, how could it be perfect?

to answer your question about where did you say sin was OK.......i don't remember saying that you did. my point was to show that with this love that we have for everyone, especially for sinners, that along with it we have to recognize their sin so they understand it isn't ok.

about the faith is a much bigger deal to us than it is to Him....i don't agree with you there. if it wasn't such a big deal to God that we have faith, i think God would have made Himself a very "visible" part of our lives. i mean that literally, like God talking to us like we talk to each other and looking at God as we look at each other. in the scripture that i shared about the woman being healed by touching Jesus' cloak. she was not healed by the cloth, but because she had faith. Jesus said it himself.

Would you be willing to give up your eternity in Heaven in order that a homosexual could have it instead? NO

Would you trade one man's damnation for your salvation? NO

Who is more important, you or others? OTHERS

Could a homosexual get into heaven? I don't claim to be God, and He is the only One who could tell you if someones sin outways their belief in Jesus Christ.

give up your seat even though you deserve it more no one man is more deserving than another....plain and simple

you say most christians seek salvation for themselves first and then for others. i believe that to be an absolute truth. how can you share something with someone else, or even give it away to someone else unless you have it yourselves? how can someone even fathom trying to gain someone elses soul to the Lord if their soul isn't saved already. how would someone even know that you are supposed to try to save others if we aren't saved ourselves?

now on my comments about not giving up my place in heaven, i mean it just like i said it, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! God is more important to me than any human in the world could ever possibly mean (yes, even more than my husband and children). we should definitely live by Jesus' example....dieing for others salvation. i would die for someone else's salvation, even a rapist or murderer.......but i wouldn't give up my place in heaven. Jesus didn't give up His place in heaven, and i don't believe in any aspect God expects us to either.

His death for our salvation Jesus died so that I might gain eternal life, but not just me....anyone who comes to Him. We don't have to give up our place in heaven so that someone else can have it. we don't.....they can have the same salvation that we have without anyone giving up their place. I'm sure God could make a little more room if it starts to get crowded.

kristy

7:21 PM

 
Blogger We Three Spences said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7:21 PM

 
Blogger Fireside International said...

Sig, you truly are an Enigma! I must know who you are!

Kristy,

We could just go on and on with this between the two of us! Let me say, I really appreciate your seeking heart. Keep following your convictions and putting your neck out there. I won't go over your entire post, but here's few things I'd like to comment on:

Kristy - "i am truly confused about how you believe. at one point you said scripture is perfect, and another you said that someone had to (pick the parts that we think are ok) when they put the bible together. it sounds like you are suggesting here that humans decided what went in and what got left out, correct me if i am wrong, but isn't that a contradiction???? if people picked what they wanted in the bible according to what they thought, how could it be perfect?"

Me - I'm not too sure how studied you are on the way the Bible came into being, but humans DID put it together. They decided what was in and what was out. That's just history. Of course, whether or not they were guided by God is a whole different debate. I won't go into that now. But suffice it to say, nothing contradictory is in there whatsoever. It is not possible that it is both edited by humans AND divinely guided by God? I think so.

Kristy - "about the faith is a much bigger deal to us than it is to Him....i don't agree with you there. if it wasn't such a big deal to God that we have faith, i think God would have made Himself a very "visible" part of our lives."

Me - I think that He already has. But that's my opinion. Ulimately, you are right... we disagree about this. Jesus gave us the illustration that we could move a mountain with faith the size of a mustard seed. I tend to read that differently than most folks. I sort of read it as if he said it like this (of course, I must paraphrase to communicate my understanding): You see that mountain over there? If you just had a teensy weensy grain of faith, like the size of a mustard seed, you could move that mountain. Of course, you will never move that mountain. That's because you won't ever even have enough faith to fill a simple mustard seed. But that's okay. Because my grace is sufficient to make up for your lack of mountain moving faith.

That's what I mean.

Kristy - "Would you be willing to give up your eternity in Heaven in order that a homosexual could have it instead? NO

Would you trade one man's damnation for your salvation? NO

Who is more important, you or others? OTHERS


Me - Hmmm. Interesting. I won't touch that. Thanks for the honesty.

Krtisy - "give up your seat even though you deserve it more no one man is more deserving than another....plain and simple"

Me - I ABSOLUTELY AGREE. NO ONE IS MORE DESERVING. HOMOSEXUALS ARE IN THE SAME POSITION AS YOU & ME. So then why don't we take soul-saving criticism from them? Why don't they fill our pews at church? Why don't we place our imperfect selves under the pastoral care of their imperfect selves? That's right... why can't they be pastors? Why? You said it yourself. No one is more deserving than another. Clearly we know how it should look on paper. But it DOES NOT look this way. There we are again, back to the PROBLEM.

Kristy - "God is more important to me than any human in the world could ever possibly mean (yes, even more than my husband and children)."

Me - More important to YOU? Bingo. I think that this is where you are missing out. It is a fine line that I am hinting at here Kristy. In fact, MOST PEOPLE cannot unlearn what they have learned enough that they can even comprhend what I am saying. I'm telling you, this is LIFE-ALTERING, CUTTING EDGE, HARD TO SWALLOW stuff that I am talking about. I don't think that makes you WRONG or UNSAVED. I just think that you're missing a wonderful side of salvation that Christ was trying to give us.

Kristy - "i would die for someone else's salvation, even a rapist or murderer.......but i wouldn't give up my place in heaven."

Me - Of course, giving up our place in Heaven is hypothetical...so we can rest in the fact that it doesn't really work that way. But your honest answer in this case DOES reveal selfishness in your heart. There's really no way around that. (I'm NOT judging you or saying you are bad. I'm simply pointing to what you said... you would not give up your place in Heaven. On some level, you must know that is selfish.)

Kristy - "Jesus didn't give up His place in heaven..."

Me - No He didn't. But I believe that He loves us SO MUCH...that if it were necessary, He would give up His place. That's just what I believe, based completely upon my relationship with Him.

Kristy - "We don't have to give up our place in heaven so that someone else can have it. we don't.....they can have the same salvation that we have without anyone giving up their place."

Me - RIGHT YOU ARE! That's the beauty. But remember, the point of the hypothetical questions is NOT to ramble on about how God REALLY does things. On the contrary, they are intended to uncover who WE REALLY ARE. Thanks for the fun dialogue Kristy.

Cheers!
Luke

10:54 PM

 
Blogger We Three Spences said...

ok luke, again you have got me confused. are you trying to tell me that you believe that we should love charles manson so much that we would give up our own relationship with God and our eternal life with him so old chuck can be saved and live in heaven while we burn in hell? i know that you know that this is not how God works. my question is would you give up your place in heaven? would you give up God? i couldn't do it, or should i say wouldn't do it. and how could Jesus give up His place in heaven when He is God? would heaven even exist without Him? now you have started a whole other discussion with that. i don't think this is selfishness though, i am sure you disagree. i have not forgotten anyone else in my salvation. i love God, i believe Jesus Christ came to earth in the flesh and died for my sins, and i believe the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. but Jesus came so that we could get to heaven....so in your theory, your point is taken that Jesus would do anything to get us into heaven. but wouldn't it be selfish to reject that gift for another person? if we are more worried about the people down here and where they will spend eternity than we are about what God wants, which is for us to be with Him is that selfish? i think it is.
kristy

12:40 AM

 
Blogger Fireside International said...

Kristy,

I think that you and I are on completely different pages here. You just don't understand what I am saying.

That's okay.

Most of my conjecturing is hypothetical in nature. The point is to draw out deeper, inner motivations... the things that ultimately drive us.

No one is asking you to give up your seat. The question has simply been, "would you?"

Your answer to that question says something about you. My answer says something about me.

I'd like to think that now, at this place where I am, I WOULD give up my seat for Charles Manson... because I LOVE HIM and want what is best for HIM.

TRUE Love is COMPLETELY selfless.
We can "not like that" all day long... but that doesn't make it less True.

Thanks for the volley.
Keep plugging away!
Luke

2:37 PM

 

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